OK, all of my waited-for comments are in ( although if you haven't left one, PLEASE DO !) so first, take a minute to go down to the previous post and read them through.
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OK, Done?
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Here are my thoughts on this:
Re: the scenario.
Circumcision is a medical procedure with risks. They may be minimal, but there are risks. If BOTH parents can't agree to take that risk on behalf of their child, then the risk SHOULDN'T be taken. This isn't something that can be un-done. It matters not at all who wants to and who wants not to... it is the procedure that merits the debate. These two adults are equally responsible for the well-being of their child. Just having a penis of his own doesn't, in my opinion, make Dad the one that gets to choose... Either way. Dads penis has no bearing on this decision, as the decision is for the well-being of his SONS penis. Some have made the argument that the son should match the dad..... Would you still feel that way if dad wasn't circumcised and didn't want his son to be so? Also.... I don't know about YOUR sons... But a little boys penis looks NOTHING like a mans penis, regardless of foreskin status. Men are hairy, droopy, and of a larger proportion. Boys... Not so much. Especially 2,3,4 year old boys.. The only ones who will be sharing potty conversations with dad anyway. No matter what, they won't look the same. So, as ridiculous as it sounds to me, this is a decision best left to the boy at a later date if the parents can't agree when he is an infant.
The responses on the forum were entirely in favor of dad. Each and every one of these women responded with words we have seen here.. That Dad has the penis, he should be the one making penis decisions. I was SHOCKED at the number of women more then willing to take a back seat in the decisions made regarding their children. This is YOUR son too, ladies! YOU have a right to 50% of the vote!
Alyca made most of the points I would have made in my argument with "dad". It is a purely cosmetic procedure. This is agreed on across the boards medically. This is why the AAP doesn't recommend it. This is why the majority of "foreign" countries don't practice this procedure. I think, sadly, a lot of parents agree to this procedure simply because it is common. Women today were raised with circumcised men.. Our brothers, lovers, and friends are all circumcised. It was the "thing" to do. No questions asked.
When it comes to your children....
ASK QUESTIONS.
WHY should this be done? WHY was it done in the past? Do those reasons still apply?
The answer, in my home, is NO.
Medically, there is no reason for this to be done. In this country with the resources we currently have, there is NO reason to proceed with the permanent alteration of little boys. The most persuasive study done in favor of circumcision is one based on African culture. The full article can be found
HERE. Keep in mind that in this culture multiple partners are common and regular bathing isn't. The reason this study was favorable was one of simple math. If you have more folds of skin present then infected body fluids have more places to collect. If those folds of skin are holding that infected fluid on a gland where they are easily absorbed ( ie: the glans) then yeah, duh, there is a higher chance of infection. HOWEVER... Teach your son not to be promiscuous. Teach him to bathe.
In short, teach your son to be as clean and moral as you would teach your daughter to be.
"Much too familiar with their sons penis"
Believe me, this was one of the biggest hurdles I faced when we were making our decision. Even after reading medial report after report.. Even after making the decision NOT to circumcise.. This was an issue with me. I am somewhat modest, as is Matt. We want to leave our sons privates as private as possible. The, several studies later, several reads later... A lightbulb turned on. The washing of his gentiles need not be any more invasive then the washing of Raegans. A wipe with a wet-wipe as an infant, a swipe with a washcloth in the bath, and regular bathing is all that is required. Little boys are no different then little girls in this regard. We know to wipe front to back with our wee ladies... do the same with our boys. We know to keep poo with the poo and the pee with the pee.. No wiping one into the other... Just do the same with all children. There is no special care needed. Clean your daughters labia, clean your sons penis. No big deal. All of the sudden this isn't an issue. Society taught me that an uncircumcised penis was dirty and required all these procedures to keep clean. That just isn't true. A normally clean man will get just as many yeast/bladder infections as a normally clean woman. Just like I wouldn't remove my daughters labia to make her vaginal area easier to clean, I wouldn't remove my sons foreskin to make his penis easier to clean.
Also, according to the latest research, only 60% of infant boys in the US are being circumcised, and that number is falling. This alleviates any and all fears of my son being teased in the locker room as an adolescent... Another common worry. He'll match half of his classmates. That's good enough for me!
OK, so that's it for now. Now, if you have chosen to circumcise your son or are simply in favor of the procedure, please don't take MY opinion as a judgment on YOUR decision. An informed decision is always a good one, and this decision is one in which the family dynamics play a large part.
Thoughts? Comments?
10 comments:
Great discussion! I'm probably one of the people who would lean towards giving dad the bigger voice if this issue came up in our house and we were on opposite sides. Not because I think having a penis gives him some special right to decide, but because I think his personal experience is relevant. Anyhow, it was great to read all the different opinions and get some good info to think about, thank you!
My husband and I looked at the options and the risks involved and we decided to go ahead with circumcision for our son. I think society convinces us that it's just "the way things are" these days. My husband and I felt it was the right decision for us, although I had never compared how similar it would be to having a daughter.
I do think it's a decision for both the parents to make, that's what we did. I also think each couple is different and whatever they decide is their right and no controversy should be made over it. Like you said, as long as the parents teach their children to bathe, then there's no real issue either way. You made some good points here. :)
I still have to disagree because of the specific experience of one employee of a local urologist's office, because of the microbiology class that discussed the increased risk factors for STD's and infection for both male and female, and because that "teach your children to ...." has never worked with me, my siblings or most of my friends. My own mother tried to teach me lots of things. I either didn't listen at all or I did exactly the opposite. I'm still basically suspicious of anything she says. So, we as parents do the best we can and hope and pray that it sticks, but I see no harm in having a contingency plan for when your child turns 13, gives the parental units the finger (literally or figuratively) and decides to make his own decisions based on what he thinks is a good idea. I'm sure that at some point (sorry for the icky example) someome told me that I shouldn't have sex while menstruating. I blew that off in a New York minute and it wasn't until recently that I found out that doing so increases a woman's chance of infection significantly. So not only did I do it, but I did it while I was young enough to be as stupid as possible about such things. Also, you my dear friend can't say any more than I can that you took everything your mother told you to heart and allowed it to run your life and decide your actions. I've met your hubby so I know better!!! ;-P
So there!
Ah but one thing you Do do that your mother taught you was BATHE. It is that simple. We aren't talking rocket science here.. just bathe regularly. That is an easy lesson taught. Yes, as teen I will have a heck of a time getting him to do so, but by the time he leaves my home at 18-19 years of age, bathing regularly will be a normal part of his day.. just like brushing his teeth, etc. No, I can't guarantee that he won't be sleeping around.. but I can't guarantee that with my daughter either. I can only hope that some small voice in their head is their mothers, and they make the right decisions in life. In the end, it is a cosmetic procedure that we choose not to make.
I find it interesting that people get so pissed (sorry) about this subject.
If you don't want to do it - don't. BUT don't get all pissed off if someone else does.
The French supposedly don't shave their armpits or legs but that doesn't mean that I am going to start letting mine grow -even though shaving is entirley a cleanliness issue for me. Notice for me. Notice cleanliness. Now I have cut myself and there are even little scars but I am not going to stop. Having my legs shaved I know enhances my partners bedroom experience. If you don't want to shave - don't! Even if someone else thinks it is gross - who cares! Why make a big fuss about it and get everybody all riled up? Wars are not going to be won or lost, civilizations will not fall because of this issue.
Sorry. As far as supporting facts....I think that there is enough info and opinions on both sides and both sides know where to look.
If you want to weenie wack then do it and if you don't then don't!
Oh and just because something is done here and not there does not make it right in the other location. If things are so much better in these other countries why are ya'll still here?
Good subject for a debate- if that was what you were looking for.
A normally clean man will get just as many yeast/bladder infections as a normally clean woman
Just FYI......not true. Men are MUCH less likely to get a bladder infection than women. In fact, if they get one, it is a red flag that something more may be amiss. In women, the urethra is right in the middle of lots of possible body fluid contaminants, but in men it is not, so they RARELY get them...As far as circumcision goes, maybe they are a bit more likely to get a bladder infection if the smegma builds up and gets pushed into the urethra.
Jen: I feel the exact same way. I am pretty tired of getting crap for this decision. This discussion started off as a "who has more say" rather then a for/against argument.. but of course, with this kind of debate the focus was bound to change. RE: other countries.. I think the point being made was that the US is the only country in the modern world that still practices this procedure routeinly.. not that one is better then the other, but that of all the advanced societies, the US is the only one that still does it.... yet statistically, there is not a higher rate of problems in those other countries comparatively.
Alyca: Very interesting! Makes perfect sense! I was hunting like mad for statistics comparing men and women as far as general genital health goes, but what I was able to find was on those loud pushy "do not cut" sites, so not as reliable as I'd like to quote. Good to hear first hand from someone who has to deal with this area regularly!
I think what I'm aiming at is that it is a cosmetic procedure, like piercing your infant daughters ears. Those that choose not to do it shouldn't be harassed as they have just as many facts and current medical documents supporting their decision as those that choose to do so.
It is too bad that you are being harassed regarding this subject.
We based our decision for our son based partly on the fact that "Dad" was circumsised and mostly on the experience of a friend in the medical field and other experiences with their "older" sons who had issues when mom decided they were old enough to care for themselves and they obviously were not.
Not you but some when asking someone elses opinion feel so justified in their own that they have to beat the subject into the ground trying to make someone else see their side. It is hard to give your opinion and not just let it go when someone does not agree with your opinion.
In my opinion (hee hee) this is one of those subjects that is blown out of proportion. I don't remember it being such a big deal when I was a younger adult. Is this the new spotted owl/immunization/gay issue?
OH ---
DOES THAT COUNTDOWN SAY 7 DAYS?
ONLY SEVEN DAYS?
Come on over, we'll go for a ride in the four wheel drive on a bumpy road followed by bowling, a glass of wine, a tablespoon of castor oil and a peek at Frances in the morning before makeup and we'll have a baby tomorrow!
PS> You know in order to make you laugh I will now have to endure a huge slap from said Frances. :)
Suppose you are worth it!
HA HA!! The bumpy ride, bowling, gallons of booze and casrtor oil I can definately do... But Frances in the morning pre-coffee/makeup?
I'd rather be pregnant.
;-)
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